Closing the $15T Insurance Coverage Gap with Storytelling

Our very own Sarah Bennett, VP, Head of US Marketing at Legal & General America, sat down with HumanAPI to talk about marketing and life insurance. In this episode of Digital Insurance Innovator,  hear the conversation about:

  • How to market to B2C and B2B channels with brokerage and distribution
  • Creating better consumer engagement and transparency
  • Strategies to use data to create a better experience for both consumers and brokers
 
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Transcription

One of the innovations of this digital platform and experience I keep talking about is how we can use data and things like electronic health records, as well as just a reflexive application to help us figure out who we can collect less evidence for. 

It's time for digital insurance, innovator, a podcast from human API that share stories of business, leaders, building the future of insurance, you're about to hear conversations about delivering engaging customer experiences, underwriting transformation, health and wellness programs, the latest innovation trends and how insurance is becoming digital.

R: Let's get into the show.

R: Well hello and welcome to another episode of Digital Insurance innovator. We are joined today by Sarah Bennett, the chief marketing officer of legal and General America. And we're super excited to have Sarah on the show today to talk a lot about marketing and Life Insurance, and where that is going today. Sarah has had a phenomenal career and spending a vast amount of time at some of the largest companies in the world, including Capital One and American Express and a little bit more on that later. But for now, Sarah, thank you for joining us and welcome to the show.

SB: It's great to be here really excited. 

R: How you doing today.

SB: I'm doing great! Lots going on, just making it through another fantastic exciting week of lots of exciting work on our journey at LGA.

R: Fantastic yeah mean as we were talking about just a little bit earlier it's it's certainly, whilst there's a lot happening out there right now it. It is certainly a really busy time for everyone, so we definitely appreciate you making the time. So as we spend a little bit of time together here, I know we're going to talk about a few key themes and just for those listening. What you can expect that you know throughout this show is we're going to touch on some themes, such as, how do you, indeed market, to both a kind of Direct-to-consumer channel, as well as bB2B channel with brokerage and distribution.
We're going to be talking about hearing Sarah's perspective on how do we create better consumer engagement and transparency. And, finally, we'll also talk about, how do you use data in a data driven world to create a better experience? For both consumers and brokers alike.

Before we jump into all of that, you know. Sarah, Think, as I mentioned in the introduction, you've had a phenomenal background, a great career. You don't necessarily come from a traditional insurance background. You know, with spending a lot of time at Capital One and American Express. I know you worked on some really large and exciting projects at American Express and we would love to hear about some of that.

Are you able to share your personal journey and how you've approached being a chief market officer and how is that evolved as you've moved into life insurance sure?

SB: So, I love marketing and what I love about marketing is to me it's all about the intersection of human behavior, design, and analytics. It's all about learning how to help people and influence people and meet them where they are. And so that that's just always been a huge passion of mine. I feel really lucky that I started my career at American Express because it is such a customer driven organization. Both for, you know, its merchants and consumers and has such a, such a great training ground. As a marketer to really teach ownership and business savvy, you know, along with brand and digital and customer experience. So, while there (I) really was able to spend a lot of time on digital consumer customer acquisition, and then later on in my career spent time in the merchant services division working on launching Small Business Saturday. Which is just such a fantastic program, and every time I see the stickers in the advertising now I'm so excited about what it does to help small businesses. So that's a little bit about the AMEX background and Capital One, such a technology focused company, such great digital experiences that they create, and for me. It was great training ground to come to life insurance, which is another financial service, but really the last frontier in terms of how to think about customer engagement, both consumer and B2B, how do we create a great journey for people?

R: That's great, I mean it's. I could just imagine the kind of stories that you could tell maybe over a glass of wine on just, you know. How does an organization and a team come up with break through ideas like Small Business Saturday, and you know watching your wallet, and I mean both, as you said, great training grounds, great brands that recognize the importance of branding and Marketing to the end consumer, and I like what you said on the American Express experience in that... When I think about the merchants- and you know you touched on this with on a prior conversation about... You have merchants consumers and there's a lot of similarities there between the broker world and the consumers and because, as far as I understanding your role, you are responsible for and when I think about what is important to LGA is to marketing to both the consumers directly, but also leveraging that great broker channel out there that you have.

SB: Yeah, absolutely. I mean our business is primarily through distribution, so that is our customer. You can think about us as a B2B2C business, right? The the distribution that we work with is really working with that end consumer and well. We do direct-to-consumer, and that gives us some great learnings that we can feed back into the business. We are really working in my department to think about how to use some of the best practices from consumer marketing for our broker and distribution. So that's been, that's been a lot of fun. And, I think for life insurance in general it's a changing environment, right? Digital is with everyone. Every person, right? And COVID's made that even more apparent, and so really being able to dig into that toolkit of the things we know work from a direct to consumer marketing perspective and, for me, from my experience, and adapt some of that to help our a distribution community has been., you know, a great experience.

R: Can you give the listeners some of the examples, as you preach out directly to the consumers to understand the kind of the needs-- the wants--how, you know, how they're expecting to receive products and services? Can you give us some of those examples? And you know, how do you then share that with the brokerage community? And, it sounds like, that is probably one of the huge benefits for the broker community of working with someone like Legal & General.

SB: Yeah. I think what we've done is take some of those practices that are typically used with consumers and we've actually instead started to try to get-- We solicit a lot of feedback from our distribution partners at LGA. So a couple examples are: we have something called lab lift, which just helps accelerate for certain populations, you know, the buying process of life insurance. And when we went out to name it, we actually went to the distribution community and to brokers to just get input from them on what they thought of the name. Did it describe accurately what the program was? Was it easy for them to be able to talk about it? And it just seemed like a much smarter way to think about naming that than sort of doing it in a closed environment. I think, similarly, as my team does work on, you know, rolling out our digital application platform, which were in the course of doing, we like to get a lot of feedback on, you know, what would make you want to use this? If we talk about it, this way, like well show them pieces of content, right? If we talk about this way, it is that going to be meaningful? You know, to the brokers that you work with. What else can we explain? And that just helps us continue to iterate and meet them where their needs are. So, it's just using some of those best practices.

R: Yeah. Now that sounds great. And when you talk to the broker community, what what' top of mind on you know, as you talk to folks in the broker community, as the world has changed? I mean the last twelve months. You know, I think we've heard the word, unprecedented four billion times, right? But, I mean it really has been unprecedented. And, what do you hear from the broker community? About what they're looking for from a carrier like Legal & General.

SB: I mean, I think what they want is for us to be easy to do business with. For it to be. You know clear and understandable for them around what it is that we're offering. And to make it easy for them to make that proposition to their customer. And so, as we talk about, you know, the digital platform, it's really around making their job easier. You know, and allowing them to stay in the driver's seat, and help their client obtain life insurance. Especially in environment like COVID, where it is much more top of mind than I think it was. I mean, I know when I entered the industry, there was a lot of-- I would hear this line about, you know, you have to sell life insurance. It's not like people come and want it. You don't ...  people don't want to think about it.

The sell vs. buy?

SB: Yes. And, I think, for better or worse, COVID has helped open people's eyes to what an important product it is. For peace of mind and security. And, I know, that, you know, a lot of people take pride-- a lot of distributors take pride in what they're able to do, right? They're helping people. And so our role, as the carrier is to help them help people with a great buying experience, and a great product.

R: That sounds great. Are you able to maybe share a little bit more details about some of the exciting projects, either you have launched in recent time, or that, you know, as you think about specifics, of some of the things that you, and your teams, and maybe even the broader teams at Legal & General are doing to do. Just that.

SB: I mean, I think the most exciting project, frankly, is this digital platform that we've been working on and are rolling out. And, you know what's great about LGA is we take a very agile approach to our development of the platform. It's iterative. So, it's really around rolling features out, understanding what's working, and continuing to improve upon that. I think my team's role is really we're a translator, right? We're trying to help the give the feedback back in with, you know, sales as our partner who really owns the relationship. Back into the development teams, and then communicating back out what our new features, you know, really are. So I think, as we continue to roll it out, we'll continue to make that journey better. It's.. we're about to do some really great releases. I'm not going to talk in detail about (it), but we're about to do some good releases in the next month or so to really, to really create a fully packaged experience.

R: Right. Well, we'll be on the lookout for that. When, you know, you mentioned making it easy, I mean at the end of the day, that's what we all are in business to do, right? Make it easier for our partners, our channel, and the consumers. One of the reoccurring themes that we're hearing on this show is that life insurance. The whole process. Is full of friction and that everyone is trying to remove the friction. It's you know, I mean the whole intent of this show is to share innovation and some of the great things they're doing, but people are doing, but also, obviously to look at. You know, sharing the learnings and understanding together, And I guess essentially, making, bringing everyone together to help really remove the friction and make it easier. When you go out to marketing you're talking to consumers and you're talking to the brokers, are you able to give us some examples of some of the areas of friction that you are hearing about or seeing? And I guess, more importantly, what do you think as a company and as an industry, we should be focusing on to remove that friction.

SB: Now, that's a great question. You know, I think the biggest friction is fluids. That's, you know, that's the nice life insurance term for it. But, the evidence that needs to be gathered in order to purchase life insurance in the United States. And, you know, that's something I learned a lot about when I joined, and that's just something that's done to ensure that we're managing risk. But, at the same time it's just a very cumbersome process and I think it stops a lot of people from going through the purchase process. There's just a lot of steps. A lot of third parties involved, I think, with COVID, that's become even more challenging. And, so one of the innovations of this digital platform, and experience I keep talking about, is how we can use data, using things like electronic health records, as well as just a reflexive application, to help us figure out who we can collect less evidence for. Because we really, you really want to be able to, you know, go look at life insurance policies, figure out how much coverage you want, answer a few questions, and have them leverage the data that, you know, exists out there to help make a decision so that you don't have to get pricked. You don't have to have someone come to your house, And you don't have to spend an hour and a half answering questions that might not be relevant to your situation. I mean, I think, one detail I didn't, you know, didn't share when we were talking in the last question is. The platform's  reflexive, you know, question set--we've taken the interview process down to under twenty minutes. And it It can be all done digitally, right? Or it can be done with the broker that's helping you, who can guide you through it. Instead of this long static, not applicable, not applicable, you know, static analog process for the paper APP.

R; So one of the things, you know, we recently had Paolo DeMartin, CEO at SCOR on one of the episodes and, you know. He spoke about the concept of life insurance needing to evolve from a product to an experience. And I keep hearing you use the word experience. And, you know, as a tenured chief marketing officer, I'd love to understand a little bit more about what you mean by that specifically. Like, when we think about product today, and we talk about doing to an experience and changing the way that looks for a consumer. How? How should we all be thinking about that? 

SB: So to me, there's kind of two parts to the experience, right? There's the purchase experience and then there's, you know, this product as we call it. You can't touch it. You can't feel it right. It's something that you're using to help you feel more secure in the financial part of your life, right? And, so when we think about that, from an experience perspective, we, you know, we really want to understand where the consumer is at the end of the day. What do they need? What are they concerned about? As someone goes through life their needs change. And so we, as a carrier, want to be able to have a set of products, or a set of things that can fill those needs. So I think, you know, Paolo is really right and thinking about it. That way, when we think about what digitization and technology can do is, it can really allow a consumer to think about what their needs are at that point in time, and explore, maybe how those needs might change and how what any company has, LGA in this instance, could offer them over, you know, over the course of their buying experience and their life. So, I think we had talked at some point earlier Richard about you know. We have term life insurance as really what we specialize in. And there's something called laddering, where you can buy policies, you know, for different durations. So if you have two kids in college, you're going to maybe need more coverage than later on in your life. And, digitizing the experience and how we interact with customers will really help people choose, sort of, what's right for them at that point in time.

R: Yeah. I mean, I think that concept when you brought it up was, was you know just as a consumer, really interesting, right? And to me, that is that level of experience it's meeting the needs and demands of your consumers. And. But knowing and realizing that that's going to change at different points in time. And, so, I like how you kind of separate the purchase experience to the ongoing experience. And, it's, it does feel like there's a lot of friction in that purchase experience right now. I mean, the things you touched on, obviously around the fluids and the evidence retrieval, um, but all the way through to how long it can take for some folks to get that life insurance. You know, we Andre Pop our CEO and Founder on one of the shows, you know, kind of joked that it's in some ways easier to buy a house, or faster to buy a house than it is to get life insurance, right? And having been through it a couple of times myself. I do sympathize or empathize with that. But then there's the ongoing experience when, when you compare your experience from marketing perspective, in kind of more that financial services sector, which, which does feel like, and I'll just speak personally as a consumer, does feel like it is kind of a light years ahead, in terms of innovation and customer engagement and experience. Right now, in the life insurance world, we see the engagement experience tends to be focused around just the upfront acquisition -- and even that's full of friction. Do you think about and as Legal & General America think about past that acquisition? You know, as I'm a consumer now of this product, or of this experience. What happens next, you know? I'll give you a quick example. I signed up ten years ago for a life insurance policy with a very large carrier here in the US. And I've never heard from them again. And that feels weird. Whereas, I get daily text messages and emails and engagement from every other part of my life. Is that something that you think about?

SB: Absolutely. And, we have some great people in our customer service and operations area that my team is, you know, beginning to work with more, as we think about that engagement experience, right? You know, the tricky thing with life insurance for a lot of people is - You buy it. You pay your premium. And, you kind of forget about it, right? It's not like a credit card where you're using it constantly. You know, to transact in your life. But there are absolutely opportunities that we're working on in terms of making interactions with us easier, people's lives do change. They might need to change a beneficiary. There could be other products or services that we might want to offer. We do cross-sell another product, called accidental death, to our existing customer base and for some people that's a great thing to have as another, you know, option on top of their life insurance policy. So, there are opportunities to engage. We just have gone through not this year, but last year, re-platforming our entire website to make it a lot more accessible and easier to learn out life insurance. And to learn about the different aspects of products and how you could think about things. And, so we are working diligently to think through how to better engage customers.

R: One of the things that Paolo highlighted is, you know, the core priorities as the industry shifts. You know, you touched on digital disruption and transformation that you've touched on. Another area that he kind of touched on that we're seeing a lot of Interest in at the moment is around the kind of the concept of, the term of, you know, health and wellness. And, kind of, what life, what consumers of life insurance companies are hoping for, or expecting from them, right? At the end of the day, who cares more about how long someone live or the health of someone, probably then than the life insurer? Is that an area you have either looked at, or I mean, do you have a personal opinion on the role that the life insurer could play in that?

SB: So we have not specifically looked at that, though conceptually, you know, I've talked about with my team. Is there- Is there some additional benefit? You know, for the folks that have labs, have to get labs, or blood work. I mean that's some data they might have about their health that they might not otherwise have had if they were applying. You know, unless they were applying for life insurance. So maybe there's something there. I think we can definitely do some work and exploration on sharing content about how to lead a healthy life. I know, you know, one of the major distributors that we work with Health IQ. You know, they focus on that aspect, of tying health to life insurance. So, I think, there's definitely something there. It's not something that we've actively explored from a marketing perspective, yet,

R: Okay, okay, are there any other areas that, as you again, talk to the broker community, or consumers directly, that you're starting to investigate, or that you start thinking, you know, this. This may make sense for us as a carrier, to offer this both to the consumers in the broker community.

SB: To me, what I think we need to focus on more, is honestly, the coverage gap. There's still a huge coverage gap in the United States.

R: And what do you mean by that? 

SB: So, people who don't have life insurance that really should get it. I mean, pretty much, everybody should have it.

R: Right.

SB: And so, where I think, there's opportunity for our company and- and it really fits in with our mission- is on continuing to spend a little bit more attention towards, sort of, educating the population. Figuring out how to help brokers tell that story. In addition, I think, from my perspective, you know term insurance is not, you know, everyone can have that, right?. You can find an affordable option in term insurance. It's not like some of the more, complicated life insurance products that are investment vehicles.

R: Right.

SB: And so, I think, there's a real opportunity to reach middle America, frankly. And help everybody kind of understand why this is an important part of their financial security. And it can be affordable. And we can figure out a way to get coverage. And for people to get coverage younger. You know?

R: Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the other questions I was going to ask you. I recently read a report that linking to the kind of coverage gap concept that there's a fifteen trillion dollar opportunity out there around the courage gap. But also, if you look at, you know, the younger generations, that there's just a huge percentage that don't have it and when you look at the way like insurance policies are constructed and obviously it's it's. The bang for the buck is much better as you're younger much easier to get in before you know the effects of old age is starting to impact us. What do you think is stopping people, and what's the role you think you can have, and other marketers can have? Because, you know, I agree with you, one hundred percent. What I think about. I don't think I ever sit down at the dinner table and talk about life insurance. But I definitely hear people asking who to use for car insurance and home Insurance. And I don't know a single person, I don't know if you do that, doesn't have car insurance, or doesn't have insurance on their home. But, yet, I do talk to a lot of people where I am shocked, especially at certain ages, that they just don't have that life insurance. And I love what you said there. It really is helping people tell the story.

SB: Yeah. So, first of all humans, don't think long term very well, right? And and one of the parallels to the life insurance galp is like, frankly, saving for retirement, right? There's a gap in how motivated people when they're younger are to save for retirement, because it seems a long way off.

R: Right.

SB: And they don't have to worry about it. And I know that there have been, I'm always listening to lots of different things that aren't technically business they are like a lot more about policy and society, but I think that all fits back into marketing and business. But the way that you can get people to sort of imagine their future. There have been some studies. If you get people to imagine their future, young people, they suddenly make the connection about retirement. I think it's the same with life insurance. Frankly, no one wants to think that one day they're going to die.

R: Right. 

SB: And when you're young, the last thing on your mind is that you're going to you're going to pass away one day, right? Or that you might have other responsibilities and something could happen. It's not a pleasant thought. So, it really is about a story telling us the right story about how this is part of your a financial well being. It's, you know, it's a simple thing to do particularly term insurance. It's not complicated, it's not intimidating. Right? And it's a great investment. And then it's, you know, something you know you're doing for your loved ones. I think that's another thing that we miss out on. I mean, I think, one other thing, just to just to build on that. Another thing that I think has been really interesting. And it is women's history month, is the coverage gap with women. And we've done some great campaigns and materials at LGA around, you know, making sure that women are taking into account that they need life insurance, right? Who's going to,  who's going to do all of the things, that, the, you know, that person in the relation- you know, if you're not working, it could be a man or a woman, but I don't think women think about it enough.

R: Yeah! That's really interesting. You know when you think, start thinking about those that don't think that they need life insurance, whether it's a young person or a particular gender or anything. And I think that's what must be exciting in your role being able to tell those stories and help again, not just Legal & General, but your brokers as well. You know, and when I think about you know in marketing, you know, we talk about. You know the consumer journey, the consumer, engagement and journey a lot, and you know we've kind of touched on that a little bit, but specifically to the consumer journey. Where, where was it when you first joined, I think what about two and a half years ago, from memory, to now and where? Where do you want it to be? What would nirvana look like for a consumer journey, whether it's directly with Legal & General, through a broker of Legal & General?

SB: Yeah. So I think, you know, two years ago we just didn't have as flexible digital ecosystem, and we now do, we have just spent a lot of time, really great team investing and making sure that we have a very flexible environment where we can make changes really quickly and bring content in. We've done a lot of work on. You know both our SEO and our SEM. You know just shoring those up, making sure that we're really thinking about that strategically. We've started to work on a lot more content, like what we're talking about a few minutes ago, educational content, another part of my team were working a lot more on, you know, what we're doing in social and having conversations about the great things that LGA can deliver, that can drive interest. And so I think we're in a place now, where, you know, we have a lot more interest from, you know, both consumers, but also partners who want to work with us, on the consumer side. You know, in terms of, of driving traffic. So I think that that's a great story. And, obviously, you know, great digital marketing is all around understanding if you're making the right investments, and driving the right kind of customer experiences. I think you know what's nirvana? Nirvana is a fully online journey, where you could- Click. Click. Click. Click. Okay, here you go, you can slide, I mean, we have this thing now you can kind of slide, kind of like in a credit card world, like, okay, If I want this much coverage, how much might it cost? If I want this much coverage how much might it cost, right? How much might it cost me and to be able to really deliver that policy at the end of, at the end of that experience? Without, you know, without getting in the way at all!

R: Right, right. No, it's, it's, I guess, it is taking it from that current of friction to a truly frictionless journey, where it sounds like lots of options and choices that, that can be made in real time.

SB: Yeah. Absolutely

R: So, let's switch, switch a little bit a lot of time, on a lot of podcasts. Even this one, people talk about all the great things that happening, right? They talk about all the successes and the best practices, Look, whether at Legal & General, or whether, you know, in some of your previous roles. What have you seen go wrong in business to business and even B2C consumer marketing? And, how can other people learn from some of those mistakes or failures that you've seen?

SB: I think the biggest mistake that, and this isn't about LGA or insurance, I think every comp-companies forget to put the customer at the center.

R: Mmm.

SB: Right? They think about what they want to achieve and sometimes forget that, if you start with the customer, you're still going to achieve the outcome, but you have to sometimes reengineer how you're doing things to make things easier for the customer. Whether it's a B2B customer or, you know, a D2C customer. So I mean, if I go all the way back. In my experience where we started this conversation with Small Business Saturday, you know what was that really about? It was merchants, working with AMEX and AMEX was, in their mind, small merchants, charging a lot of money for them to take the card, and they weren't really seeing the value, right? Whereas consumers that have the AMMX card knew that, and felt that strong brand affinity. And small business Saturday was really about, you know, AMEX taking a step back and thinking about how important those small merchants are to the community, and to the American Express network. And how can we leverage the good that we have, to help the small merchant? So, it was about driving those consumers, who are very loyal to the card, into those businesses, and showing that you know it is in fact a benefit for you, small merchant, to be a member of the AMEX network, and to take the card. So that's sort of a real life example of what I'm, I'm explaining, is like a mistake. I think companies make, You, you have to think about what does-  for us, it's, what does distribution need to be successful in what they're doing? Which is trying to close the coverage gap and help consumers obtain life insurance. So, does that-

R: No, that's perfect. It's a, and what you know what a great story when you think back to what you're able to do with the merchants and for the consumers the, with those loyal members, again, I just think it's uncanny how similar it really is, and the role that you can play and that the brokers can play, and, as you said, closing that coverage gap and, at the end of the day, ensuring that people have peace of mind, and protection. Oh, that's fantastic. You just touched on, Sarah, that it, it, you know, it, we're around the time depending on when this goes live, of international women's history month, also women's history month, and we recently just had international women's day. When you think back to, you know, the start of your career as a young woman entering into marketing, and you know, into financial services and now life insurance. You know, if there are listeners out there that are at the early stages of their journey, and especially young females. What, what advice would you give someone entering the market today?

SB: I mean, I think people need to do what they're passionate about, to be honest with you. And, and, it's not because it's not this "Oh, follow your passions", it's really, if you're, passionate and interested in something, you're going to be good at it. You're going to want to learn, you're going to want to get better at it, and you're going to want to evangelize for whatever that is. You know, that's how I feel about marketing, and I think for any young person starting and for, you know, young women in particular. You know feel confident be assumptive. Be Curious, be open, learn and don't don't be afraid, right?  To follow your instincts, but always keep an open mind. So, I never thought I would end up in financial services. That was, you know, not my life stream, but what I love about financial services and this applies to life insurance, too, is I love the challenge of telling a story about something you can't touch. You can't see it. You can't pull it off a shelf. 

R: Right.

SB: Right? It's a product, but it's not a three dimensional tactical, tactic, you know, tactile thing. 

R: Sure, sure. Which, which, I guess, on one hand is hard, on the, on the other hand, when you talk about passion, and when I think about the emotions that something like an intangible product like life insurance can bring, and you know I, straight away into my head- I'm seeing a commercial, a life insurance commercial- and you know you seeing your loved ones and your children in it. It must be exciting, Both, financial services and life insurance for a marketer to be able to tell that story and about things that we really care about. You know, there are products that come and go the latest fad, but we are talking about providing that long term protection for the people that we care about the most.

SB: Absolutely, that's what really motivates me and that's why I've stayed in financial services for as long as I have. It's something that matters to people. It makes a difference in people's lives. It's important. And that feels really good. 

R: Well, I loved your advice. To young people out there, and you know it reminded me, a lot of your comments reminded me, of a recent podcast that heard Brad Feld on, where you know someone. Someone gave him some great advice, on, which was they can't, kill you, right? And, when I think about some of the words you use: confident, belief, passion, look absolutely! And I think not having fear, right? Just realizing that everyone's the same, and that sometimes you just have to truly shoot for the, shoot for the stars, and I think that's, that's some great advice. Well, we, you know, I've really appreciated the kind of insights you've been providing for us around the insure engagement, the consumer journey. You've had a sensational career. It sounds like things are going phenomenally well at Legal & General. You know, I'm sure, You still have a lot of things left that you want to do. If there's one thing that, you know, you could wave a magic one and get done whether its at Legal & General, for the industry. Is there something that you can think about, that you really are? You know sitting your mind on that you want to get done, Sarah?

SB: For the industry. I think just, seriously solving this evidence gap and figuring out how we leverage data, and how we make a better customer experience that helps close the coverage gap, is- That would be my nirvana, so that we can focus on telling the story. Right? Focus on telling the story and closing that gap, rather than, sort of, blocking and tackling how hard it is to actually go through that buying experience. Once we get you to think about that, you actually need it, you know. Let's close the funnel, let's not lose people

R: Well, I know I know you and the team at Legal & General America is doing a lot right now to address those evidence, gaps and the electronic health records, and so I'm I'm confident that you all are going to definitely help close, that courage gap. Ah. Couple of fun questions I always like to ask people, I guess, towards the end of a show, is there a book that you've read recently or your reading or a podcast that you that you're listening to? 

AB: I'll give you one of each. I just finish this great book very memorable title. It's about George Washington, but the title is "You never forget your first", but it's actually, one of the only women historians who's ever written a definitive biography on George Washington, but it's a much more human look at him. It's not a mythical look, right, it's really bringing in the humanity of the man, and showing some of his flaws. So I thought that was really compelling, its by Alexis Co.

R: Alexis Coh.

SB: And then one of my favorite podcast is "Hidden Brain" with Shankar Vadanki. They just talk about such interesting topics that make you really they make me think about marketing. Actually.

R: It is funny when you listen to, you know, different podcast, like I'm, a big fan of Tim Pharaohs, Renae Brown, Dax Shepherd and sometimes you'll be listen to these and they could be about all different topics, but it's amazing how much it can drive some relevancy for what we do every single day.

SB: Yeah. I agree. I actually recommend that people don't listen to some to podcasts of what they already do, because I think you can get in a rut. For me, I much prefer to listen to things that aren't related, because I think it's really important to create those connections and bring context, and especially for what I do with marketing, because it is really about human. It's about people.

R: Yeah, about people, Behaviors, how we think! You know what were, what we, what drives us. Right? So. Well, Sarah, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you joining us and you know look forward to having you back at some- at some stage to kind of update us on the progress and the journey that you're all having over at Legal & General. If someone would like to get in touch with you, they've loved hearing what you have to say: What's the easiest way for them to get in touch with you?

SB: Definitely On LinkedIn.

R: Excellent. All right. Well, Sarah again, thank you for joining us on this, on this episode and we'll look forward to catching up with you soon.

SB: Thank you.